tv Hardball With Chris Matthews MSNBC September 21, 2011 5:00pm-6:00pm EDT
say is look who is on the super bowl. >> when the nfl is riddled with steroids in in matter. >> yes. >> a pleasure to see you. see you sooner than later. i'm dylan ratigan and "hardball" with chris mass thuts starts right now. united nations, divided voices. let's play "hardball." good evening. i'm chris matthews down in washington. leading off tonight, the president, palestinians and politics. picture these two scenes. one, president obama making a full-throated defense of israel at the u.n. today saying there will be no palestinian statehood until the palestinians make peace with israel. and, two, governor perry saying the president committed apiecement, that's his word. romney saying that the president threw israel under the bus. just imagine the cries of traitor if democrats had bashed
president bush hours before he spoke at the u.n. how can anyone accuse president obama, by the way, of not supporting israel after today? also, what some call the professional left is thrilled with president obama's new found populous voice, but former bill clinton, strategist mark penn worries, that the president has it exactly wrong and is in danger of losing the middle of the road voter. we'll debate that tonight. plus, in two hours troy davis is scheduled to be executed in georgia. despite years of effort and national attention, all of his options for clemency have now been exhausted. but is it possible an innocent man is being put to death. and we hear almost every day from republicans, if you raise taxes on people making $250,000 a year, you're hurting the job creators. that's their phrase, job creators. really? is everyone making that kind of money a job creator, or is this just another way to keep taxes down for the better off. you decide. and let me finish tonight with rick perry's dangerous and
ignorant use of the word appeasement. we start with the president, palestinians and politics. howard fineman joins us and joan wall everyone is editor at large for salon.com. both of you treasures guests on this program, as you both must know. let's talk about this vote today. today president obama told the united nations general assembly that the united states, our country, would not support the palestinian bid to create a state through the u.n. opposing something many of the country's allies in the arab world strongly support. let's watch our president. >> peace will not come through statements and resolutions at the united nations. if it were that easy, it would have been accomplished by now. >> he also used the occasion of his 47-minute address to defend israel in front of a body that has been, and we all know, this historically hostile to israel. let's listen. >> america's commitment to israel's security is
unshakeable. our friendship with israel is deep and enduring. israel, a small country of less than 8 million people, look out at a world where leaders of much larger nations threaten to wipe it off the map. the jewish people carry the burden of centuries of exile and persecution and fresh memories of knowing that 6 million people were killed simply because of who they are. >> howard, you know, i've done some looking up on this like we all have, his political history, a short political history, of course, president obama, but coming up out of chicago politics, coming up with the friends he's made, the supporters he's had, the people he's close to in terms of thinking at night, they used to say people he meets near midnight, people he talks with all the time, say he's very pro israeli. may not be as pro-israeli as george w. bush in a mechanical way, but this charge of appeasement by perry today, your thoughts? >> well, talking to people on
both sides of the aisle and all sides of this issue today, i didn't hear one, including a republican who is very involved in pro-israel republican jewish activities who praised rick perry for using that word. matt brooks, who is the head of the republican jewish coalition. >> good guy. >> good guy. >> i've known him a long time. >> i asked him about perry, and he said, well, he -- he, matt, was traveling. he didn't -- he didn't get to hear the whole thing. he thinks it's good that rick perry supports -- >> now he -- matt, are you watching, budy? see if you can catch the drift of this thing. republican, don't ever mention the holocaust in any other context than the holocaust. don't mention appeasement in any other context other than 1938, ladies and gentlemen. here's a guy, got to be a real knucklehead. not suring he is one. here's knucklehead behavior. here he is telling a crowd in new york yesterday that obama is guilty of appeasement. let's watch this guy doing this. let's listen it. >> we're equally indignant of
the obama administration and their middle east policy of appeasement that has encouraged such an ominous act of bad faith. simply put, we would not be here today at this very precipice of such a dangerous move if the obama policy in the middle east wasn't naive and arrogant, misguided and dangerous. >> who is writing this claptrap, joan? this is the kind of language you use when you go to war with another country, certainly not the language you use against your own president as he's about to address the united nations and when you know he's going to give a strong defense of israel. >> right. >> when you know he's going to stand out there all alone in the world pretty much. i don't know who else is voting with israel on this issue. we are, for sure. i have to say any president right now would be, but here he is about to stand there all alone in the world and this guy pulls the rug out from under him and accuses him of basically
pro-nazi behavior. >> right. >> we know what appeasement means, neville chamberlain. >> he's pulling hitler into this which is a very horrible thing to do. it's ignorant, chris. he's even gone beyond what some israelis want. he's calling for maybe the u.s. should cut off its aid to the palestinian authority. our aid funds security there. so he knows nothing about this issue. he is -- he's ignorant as ignorant can be, and he also is playing politics because rick perry knows he'll have a really hard time getting the jewish vote if he should be nominated. i mean, come on. the guy holds his prayer rally, doesn't have a single rabbi, doesn't have a priest for that matter. evangelical christianity of a type that is very scary to some jewish people, so he's going to double down on israel and say -- >> why is it scary to any thoughtful person who is a citizen of israel? because what views to right wing christians have for israel, end of days?
>> not end of days, but he did say he comes to his support for israel out of his christian faith which is not really a geopolitical way to be approaching it. it's a theological way. >> he said i'm directed to do it. here's joe scarborough, we don't always agree, my buddy and i, joe. here he is on "morning joe" going offer rick perry and mitt romney calling them reckless for playing politics at a critical time when the president of the united states is engaged in high-level negotiations. let's listen to joe right now. >> this is not helpful when our president, our president, america's president, is in the difficult situation that he is in today in new york city with -- with i think one of the most explosive situations on the globe, and we've got rick perry and mitt romney posing for political purposes and undermining our president. that is dangerous, and it's not good for our country. >> well said. let's get on the diplomatic area
now that he's making the debut up there, rick perry as he's showing up there. i choose the words carefully. what's he running in the iowa caucuses. coming up it's a big test. you're smiling because you know politics more than anybody. what do you do in iowa, very few middle of the roaders. tom harkin on the progressive left and what's his name? what -- grassley on the right over will. >> chuck grassley, yeah. >> really working the christian right in iowa, the people who vote in the church bus. >> right. >> he's going for the people super israeli because of old testament thinking and the end of days and all the that stuff and the revelation. i shouldn't say old testament. >> rick perry's whole strategy is i'll worry about tomorrow tomorrow. >> right. >> and he's going straight after evangelical christian votes in iowa which are extremely important. the mega churches in the suburbs of des moines and elsewhere -- >> the palin bus. >> that carry a huge amount of
weight, and, yes, the idea that israel needs to flourish, needs to thrive, needs to have the end gathering of the jews to the holy land. >> and to be a larger israel, too. >> before the rapture is a big one in evangelical christianity, and also defensive israel and a hard line on israel is a big thing for certain conservative jews who are -- conservative jews as well. >> i agree. >> that's not a factor in iowa, but he'll take whatever benefit that brings him later on. >> i'm going stronger than geopolitics. joan, i'm going ask you about this. it seems that what rick perry is doing in this sort of infant i'll way is to go up to new york, jump up and down practically with a bullhorn. >> right. >> and basically take sides with those who want to annex the west bank, judah and samarra and basically create a larger israel for the purpose of the end of days so the christian right will have what they want at the end of the world. >> at some point sadly the jews go away in this story. >> under that scenario.
>> depending on the choice we make, yes. >> right. >> i'm sorry, howard. i don't expect this. >> anyway. >> politics as we know it in this country right now which is extreme politics on the right. we're getting to be very fundamentalist in our politics. joan? >> we need to bring this out. we need to say this is what he's talking about and this is where you wind up if you're a jewish person and you make friends with rick perry and the evangelical right. that's their vision for what's going to happen to your land and you. >> i don't think there's anything wrong with discussing this issue in politics. i mean, the question of the role of israel and palestine is an important one for american voters. >> sure. >> because the united states supports everybody in that region. we care about it a lot. but i agree with joe scarborough. you don't -- you don't be this naked about politics on the morning of the president giving a difficult speech at the united nations. you just don't do it. there's no -- there's no sense
of proportion or decency in the way this is being handled on that side >> i think decency is the word. we'll goat that at the end of the show. i've not been tough on him personally, but i'm personally offended by what he did to our country today. here's president obama meeting -- he met today with israel's prime minister bebe netanyahu. before meeting netanyahu, prime minister netanyahu he had this to say about vetoing any palestinian bid in the u.n. security council. >> standing your ground and taking this position of principle which i think is also the right position to achieve peace, i think this is a badge of honor, and i want to thank you for wearing that badge of honor. >> howard and joan, you first, it seems to me what bebe, he's a strong leader, what perry is up to and he's out of his league here, he knows that president obama is going to be treated very well in the jewish community, and anybody who cares about islam the next couple of months because of the heroic stand he's taken, opposing any
palestinian state created by the u.n. under any circumstance. i think they went up there to pull the rug out from under him politically. >> they went up there to try but the president is standing on the rug in parts to bebe netanyahu. >> that badge of honor. >> that photo-op -- >> you think that might show up in a general election next year? >> i think you're going to see that picture all over florida and south florida. >> speaking of joe scarborough, not so much in the panhandle, but yore going to see it everywhere from orlando south. that was worth its weight in gold to the president. >> and bebe is as smart as there is. >> knows what he's doing and knows american politics as well as israeli politics. >> i'll remind everybody that bebe netanyahu went to high school right up the street from my high school, a neighbor in good standing. last word, joan? >> it's also a tough stance for president obama to take because we're also trying to reach out to the newly liberated, newly
democratic states. we've seen the arab spring, and he cares deeply about those issues, and this is going to cost us if it comes to a veto. it costs us with those communities so it's not -- it's definitely not a decision with no negative ramifications. >> yeah. it's a strong suit for the president to wear the next few days. i think he's doing the right thing, what he has to do. sometimes the right thing is what you have to do, and what you have to do is the right thing and that's what he's doing. thank you howard fineman, thank you, joan walsh. coming up, president obama finds his populist voice. we've been talking about it, and his progressive base is very happy. my blogger friends who e-mail all the time love what he's doing, but not former clinton pollster mark pern. it's not surprising, but bobby shrum was going after him here hammering him and going after him hard. mark penn coming on in a minute to defend himself to say the president is wrong to go left, if you will, on this issue. you're watching "hardball," only on msnbc. [ male announcer ] you are a business pro.
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well, sarah palin told a home crowd, if you will, on fox tv that there's still time for her or anyone else to get into this presidential race, and even though the iowa caucuses are just four months away now, she might be right. let's take a look at "hardball" scoreboard. a new mcclatchy poll has -- finds that palin only trails president obama in a general election matchup next november by just five points. this is scary for the white house, 49/44. not much of a spread against palin, been behind the president by more than 20. that's more about him than her, i think. the reason palin has gained so much ground, now leads obama among the independents, a sign of the president's increasing vulnerability. i'd say. we'll be right back. has kind of funny looking toes. she's always touching my hair. and she does this dancing finger thing. [ male announcer ] with advanced technology from ge, now doctors can diagnose diseases like breast cancer on a cellular level. so that women, like kristy's mom, can get personalized treatment that's as unique as she is.
the same rate as a plummer or a teacher makes me a warrior for the middle class, i wear that charge as a badge of honor. >> that's two badges of honor. he's got. anyway, welcome back to "hardball." president obama at a democratic fund-raiser last night in new york city defending his plan to raise taxes on the wealthy. democratic pollster and former clinton adviser mark penn joins us now. says it's a misguided strategy. here's what he had to say. he should be bringing the country together rather than dividing it through class warfare. mark penn joins us now, along with david corn who is an msnbc political analyst and washington bureau chief. you know, you're not going to get excited about bob shrum attacking you here last night but shrum said awful things about you, really awful. worse off camera, just kidding >> you missed that. >> just the fact -- a lot of progressives watching this show, some moderate democrats watch this show and a lot of
independents and republicans watch this show, but they are trying to figure out what obama is going to try to do to get re-elected. he knows tough shape. showing the polls. neck in neck with sarah palin now, losing to independents among her. what's the right prescription, go down the middle left, somewhere where i'm at usually, or go a little bit over to the progressive side, maybe ed schultz country and really stick it to the other side? go over the rich people, a little bit of madam defarge, if you will, from the french revolution. your prescription, sir? >> first of all, let me say i love bob, mr. class warfare himself, and i think that we've been down this playbook before. this is a time to go to the center the way bill clinton did. this is the time not to bring, you know, divisive measures, particularly for president obama, who got unprecedented support. he got half of the 26% that earn over $100,000 in this country, along with the overwhelming votes for those making under 30,000. he has to bring those groups
together the way he did in the last presidential election, and this is the wrong way to do that. >> but we've got a gallup poll, want to flash it by you right now, a gallup poll that shows that 66, two-thirds of the people out there say go after those people that make over 200k. >> well, let me just say that those polls have been that way for a long time, and a majority with always be for taxing a minority, but at the polls it doesn't seem to play out that way. obama won by six or seven points last time. three of those points came from the over 200,000 crowd. they switch. he's in a head-to-head race or losing. what's happening is he has to bring people together. the divisive strategy doesn't work. moving to the center, being for smaller activist government and isolating the republicans as being against medicare, medicaid, education and the environment, that's the strategy that worked, not for being trillions of dollars of tax increases. >> david corn, seems like he's been the middle of the road for a lange time and gotten stuck in the middle of the road and
people don't like the fact that he seems to be wishy washy. >> there are two levels to this. one is the negotiating position, one is the messaging. i mean, mark even just conceded that most polls show you get 60% to 70%. i have a list of 20 polls here, if you talk about obama's approach to balancing the budget with a combination of cuts and some revenue increases, but also there's the negotiating stance which is every time you come out there and try to -- to take a more center position, the republicans this year have kicked him in the teeth. he can't -- >> going hard right. >> he can't negotiate from that position. it was bill clinton back in 1992. >> that's a good question. >> who raised taxes. >> you're saying don't be a lefty, but doesn't he have to start on the left to get to the center in any final deal or anything to do with debt reduction? >> no. he has to take a strong position, rejecting the extreme republican ideology. say, look, the republicans don't want a smaller government. they want to eliminate medicare and social security. they don't like those programs.
look, me, president obama, i'm going to protect them. i'm going to figure out how to have a smaller activist government and if we have to raise taxes, i'll hold the line on taxes as much as i can, and you know what? i'm not going to divide the country when i raise taxes. i'll propose tax reform. >> corn, look, the president just came out with a tax plan. >> yeah. >> basically raise taxes on the rich but leave medicare and social security pretty much alone so he's doing what you're saying to do, make the republicans do all the cuts in the programs the democrats favor most, social security, medicare, medicaid, so isn't he doing what you want in effect even if he's not using your rhetoric? >> he came out with a message that says i'll cut medicare if you raise taxes on the wealthy, a message that doesn't appeal to independent voters who neither want to cut medicare nor raise taxes. he never should have accepted the rhetoric of the debt ceiling in the first place and he shouldn't buy into this debate on taxes now. >> you're talking about the debt cuts. >> he's talking about going back to the clinton era level of taxation when mark penn was
advising bill clinton. >> let's not make it personal. >> i'm not getting personal. it's not a dramatic -- it's not a dramatic raise. >> it's not about the policies. >> guys. >> it's not about the policies. what is the message that the american public is hearing? he's for trillions of dollars of tax increases. he's going into an election with a water mondale-like strategy heat. got to change it, make the republicans pay a price, i agree with that. just as clinton made the republicans pay a big price by holding tough on the negotiations. but he's got to be for expanding the economy, by going out in the international economy, innovation programs and putting money into -- into new areas. he's not doing any of that. that's not his message. >> from the state of the union on he's talked about education, innovation and building, did that with the jobs speech and gets no traction from the right. i don't understand what you want him to do when he's dealing with a bunch of hostage-takers. if you look at his jobs plan, a
lot of that stuff, as he says, is stuff supported in the past by republicans. it all polls pretty damn well, whether it's good policy or not, and he's talked about trying to come up with a reasonable approach to the debt ceiling without going overboard >> i want to learn something. why is it mark, and you know this better than i do, how come my lefty friends that blog me and e-mail me all the time, and they are happy to be called left, they are thrilled, thrilled with this president this week because they will say finally he's listening to us. finally he's going after the rich who aren't paying their share. isn't this animating the base by doing what he's doing? >> well, right, but that doesn't tell you everything that you need to know? if it's animating the base, what's it doing to independent voters. he's gone straight down since he got into the budget negotiations because he became about raising taxes, not about limiting the size of government. people want to see that he's going to take the positions that he took during the presidential campaign, and they want him to bring these two groups together to find a reasonable path for budget negotiations. >> okay. >> not to be a tax raisers.
>> he can't raise taxes or cut the social programs. you're leaving him with no move at all. what can he do on cutting debt, nothing? >> he can take a tough position. he can make the republicans pay. he can come up with some cuts that make sense, and you know what? if he wants to have tax reform to raise revenue, do it in a way that's not class warfare. take, for example, if he took capital and labor and he brought those taxes closer together but didn't discriminate what people made. all of those higher wage earning professionals who voted for observe ma who pay lower taxes. >> i think you're on to something. >> and warren buffett would pay higher taxes. >> the buffet rule says no matter how much you make you should pay no less as a percentage of your income than people who work below you, that make less than you. isn't that what you're getting at? >> wait a second. >> but the -- that would be class warfare. >> no, no, no. >> he's saying if you make money -- >> mark doesn't like the buffet rule. >> if you make money the old-fashioned way through salary and pay a high percentage of
your income in taxes, you shouldn't get away by coupon clipping. is that what you're saying? >> there's an opportunity and i worked on a plan many years ago that if you close the taxes, what you do is the professionals who are the natural supporters for barack obama would pay less who are hard working, coupon clippers would pay more. it wouldn't be class warfare. >> that's the buffet rule. >> and he'd maintain his support. >> everybody should be pay the same percentage. you shouldn't pay a lower percentage if you're rich. >> you have to change tack rates to make that happen which means raising a lot of the capital gains rates. >> you also have to have some winners. >> the president is not opposed to that. >> i think you guys are closer than you think. >> listen, i don't think the president is not doing a lot of what mark is suggesting to do. he's talked through this year about being above the fray and trying to come up with a reasonable plan. >> okay. yet the other side is not giving him the latitude to do that. >> really against unfairness. i think that's what he's fighting with this buffet rule, and i think the american people will be with him if he fights on
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>> well, clearly that was no accident. don't think that slipped by anyone. hopey changey. up next, speaking of recycling some campaign jargon. here's one from gop candidate mitt romney. remember corporations are people too, line, with all the backlash it drew maybe he was thought we'd all eventually forget it happened. far from it. here's what the candidate himself mitt romney had to say at a florida town hall earlier today. >> i was in iwas other day, and someone said why don't you just raise taxes on corporations, and i said because corporations are people. raising taxes on corporations is raising taxes on people. >> does he not get that people simply don't sense any kind of kinship or common humanity with big corporations? i don't think he gets it. we'll be right back. you're watching "hardball," only on msnbc. t companies is a pain. but with allstate, bundling policies is easy and can save you money. [ woman ] you should try this instead. thank you, yeah... now she should be an allstate agent. shop less. get more.
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i'm veronica de la cruz with your cnbc market wrap. stocks plunging on the federal reserve's latest stab at salvaging the economy. the industrials sinking 283 points, the s&p 500 tumbling 35 and the nasdaq giving up 52. it's a case of be careful what you wish for. as expected the fed announced a $400 billion program known as operation twist. its goal is to rebalance the fed's portfolio in a way that keeps interest rates lower and helps bolster the housing market. the problem is nobody really expects it to have much of an effect. the fed also warned of significant downside risk to the economic outlook but stocks were already moving lower ahead of that announcement after mining giants freeport -- mcmoran slashed outlook forecasts. that dragged materials and transports lower with train companies taking some serious lumps along the way. i'm veronica de la cruz. let's get you back to
"hardball." welcome back to "hardball." we're about 90 minutes away right now from the execution of troy davis. we talked about him last night here down in georgia for the 1989 shooting death of a savannah police officer mark macphail. davis and his defense team are fighting for his life as they try to get one last reprieve in. joining me now are pulitzer prize winning columnist cynthia tucker and barry scheck of the innocence project. barry, thanks so much for joining us. how long have you been involved in studying the case of mr. davis? >> oh, i think about five, six years now, at least. >> what was your immediate interest caused by, and when did you make a judgment about his guilt or innocence? >> well, at the very beginning we saw that there were
eyewitnesses to this incident that were taken back to the crime scene, brought all together, a re-enactment was performed. then one witness came in and told everybody elsewhere they were and what she saw. single photographs were shown, so the eyewitness evidence in this case, based on everything we know from the psychology and the hard data, was just fraught with risk. you would never do this. then after that there were seven recantations by witnesses that they were really coerced by the police into making these identifications in the first instance, and then there were admissions by a man named red coles who was one of the alleged witness here, who the defense always alleged that he was the real perpetrator, that he had really committed the crime, and finally, and this happened after the georgia court got it, and it's the subject of the latest appeal. it now turns out that there was forensic evidence, a bullet that
was recovered from officer macphail. it was alleged by the police and was involved in shooting earlier that evening, that they both came from the same gun, and now the georgia bureau of investigation has said that evidence is unreliable. there's no basis for believing that both the bullets came from the same gun, and one of the jurors testified in front of the board of pardon and patrols, a woman who is a supporter of the death penalty, that she never would have voted to execute troy davis if she had known that those bullets were not fired from the same gun. so when you put all this together and you look at bill sessions, pro-death penalty, former head of the fbi, former federal judge, mark white, a former governor of texas who himself executed 22 people and was an attorney general in that state, bob barr, a congressman from georgia, these are pro death penalty people who are saying there's just too much doubt in this case that there shouldn't be an execution. >> so the argument is that the
other guy involved in beating up that homeless person somehow got a gun. that gun that had the same ballistic evidence left behind as apparently the guy who was convicted of this crime, somehow got ahold of the gun and he did the shooting. is that the theory of the crime in. >> no, no, no. the theory is a s that there was a man named red coles. he was there and the first person who came forward to the police, and he said troy davis did it because he knew troy was at the scene. >> i thought they were both involved in beating up the homeless guy. >> well, it's not clear. that's an allegation, but the point is that davis said he came upon coles beating up the guy, and coles is saying the opposite. >> oh, okay. >> but there are no credible eyewitnesses. >> what's your theory of the other guy having the gun? i'm trying to figure out what's the reasonable argument, did something else happen than what the jury happened here? >> there's plenty of reasonable arguments. the witnesses recanted. >> no, no, but what did happen then? >> well, the defense theory is a very simple one, that coles is the guy that did the shooting.
it was his gun, whatever he did with it. no gun was ever recovered. >> yeah. >> but the theory that was put before the jury by the prosecution is that there had been a shooting earlier that night and they allege that troy davis did that shooting that wounded somebody. >> and the shell casings matched up, they said in the prosecution. >> that's right. >> they said the shell casings from the prior shootings and the shell casings from officer macphail shooting matched up and now everybody agrees from the georgia bureau of investigations that that's wrong, and the reason that's important is the prosecution also argued to the jury that the reason troy davis would shoot the officer when he saw him come upon the ian is that he was worried about having committed the shooting earlier that night and so it made sense that davis did it and he did it with the same gun. that was the prosecution's theory. >> i got you. >> there's no-no forensic basis for that. that's got to be troubling. >> here we are less than 90 minutes now and the supreme court, just heard from the
associated press, the georgia supreme court refuses to stop the execution as of this minute. yesterday, by the way, the georgia board of pardons that we've been talking about and patrols, released a statement denying clemency to davis. it reads, quote, the board members have not taken their responsibility lightly and certainly understand the emotions attached it a death penalty case. in considering clemency in such case the board weighs each case on its own merit. the board has considered the totality of the evidence and deliberated on it and the decision is to deny clemency. let me bring cynthia tucker in. you're from down there. i don't know how we get beyond the jury here, but here we have the jury, the parole board, the supreme court, the federal judge involved. nobody wants to stop this execution which looks like it's going to happen. why do you see the disequality between what seems to be the manifest lack of existing extant evidence against the defendant and the refusal of the process to stop? >> well, chris you're asking the
$64,000 question, of course. why is it with all of this evidence that raises more than reasonable doubt, many, many reasonable doubts, why is it that the death train keeps rolling? and the only answer i can think of is that in a conservative state, a conservative criminal justice system, and the board of georgia -- the georgia board of pardons and paroles is also part of the larger criminal justice system, they are reluctant to admit that the system may have made a mistake? they are deeply invested in the idea that we did it right the first time, and that's -- that's the only thing that i can think of, that they were committed to this idea. no mistakes were made. we did it right the first time. we just don't want to reopen this. >> but aren't some of the participants new in this case to make the other argument? why would the fresh recruits to the parole board, for example, feel any responsibility to defend a decision made before? >> well, you know, chris, i
understand that the parole -- that it was only a 3-2 vote. that's what the word is. >> okay. >> only a 3-2 vote. >> it was a close vote, but also remember that people chosen for the board of pardons and paroles in georgia are likely to be law and order types, conservatives who believe in the system and believe that the integrity of the system has to be protected. i happen to believe that you protect the system best by reopening the case when you have new evidence. but there are many people who believe no, no. you protect the system against all assault, and this is an assault on the criminal justice system. >> barry, let me ask you this, a philosophical thing. a lot of people have problem with a lot of decisions juries make and they believe, for example, a lot of people believe o.j. simpson was guilty of the murders in the first case and you were involved in that case and they figure, well, it's not the end of the world, if somebody gets off who did it, but if somebody gets convicted and punished and their life
taken when they aren't guilty, is that worse than somebody getting off when they are guilty? >> at the innocence project we have over 275 people who were exonerated with post-conviction dna evidence, and, remember, dna evidence is only present in lace than 5% of criminal cases so what about all the other ones where there may be eyewitness misidentification, perhaps as happened in the troy davis case or bad forensic evidence that we know definitely happened in the troy davis case? >> well said, well said. we're out of time, i'm sorry. >> okay. >> we'll have you back in our second edition at 7:00. we want you back. i look forward to it. i want to talk about the very things you're bringing up here. thank you, barry scheck, one of the great exports on this and cynthia tucker as always. we'll bring you back in our live edition at 7:00. >> meet a job creator who has create nod jobs. this is "hardball" coming back in just a minute, only on msnbc. t is utterly terrifying.
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well, two american hikers jailed in iran for more than two years have been released and are heading home. shane bauer and josh fattal left tehran and were flown to the gulf state of oman today. upon landing bauer and fattal ran down the stairs of the plane into the arms of their awaiting family members and from there they will fly back to america. the pair were convicted by an iranian court of spying for the united states, even though they denied, and i think they are innocent and they maintain they accidentally crossed the iranian border which is hard to explain. they were hiking in northern iraq. a third hiker, sarah shourd, was released by iran last year. we'll be right back. [ male announcer ] you are a business pro. executor of efficiency.
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we're back. for months now we've heard the republicans in congress talk about wanting to protect small businesses. they don't want to protect rich people. they never say that. they want to protect men and women they call the job creators of america. let's listen. >> make sure that our nation's job creators have an economy in which they can start hiring again. >> get rid of the loopholes, lower the tax rates and make us more competitive so we don't tax our job creators more than our foreign competitors are taxing their companies. >> private sector job creators of all sizes have been pummeled by decisions being made right here in washington. they have been slammed by uncertainty from the constant threat of new taxes, out-of-control spending and unnecessary regulation from a government that's always micromanaging, meddling and manipulating. >> republicans believe strongly that an extra $1.5 trillion of
tax increases on america's job creators is going to do nothing to help the unemployment crisis. >> well, the great thing about word search, just go chasing for the phrases they use over and over again. it sort of shows what they're doing here, the job creators aren't who they think. in fact we've got one with us, who calls himself a job creator. "the washington post" columnist dana milbank, you did a column today, how how have you taken the clothes off, if you will, about this argument that everybody who makes 200, 250 a year is a job creator. >> mitt romney is correct, people are corporations, but guess what? more than 21 million of those are actually non-employer corporations, like me. that means it's just the guy who owns the business or the guy who is the business. you know, guess what? you can reduce my taxes to zero
or -- >> you think it's a tax dodge? >> because the i.r.s. i'm sure is watching the show, it's all perfectly legal and aboveboard. >> i'm sure you're familiar with corporations, but they can drop my taxes to zero, i'm still not going to hire more people. >> so it's a tax dodge that people can use as a pretext for every time you want to touch the people at the country club, oh, you're cutting that business down to main street. >> you say job creators, you this it's steve jobs in the garage making the next great corporation. there may be a few of those, but more than likely you're talking about doctors, lawyers -- >> did they come up with -- don't call them rich people? call them job creators. >> who comes up with this stuff? >> it's good stuff. you don't want to hurt the job crators. there's a way to help, and
that's to give them incentives. >> people making money and buying stuff. they always say in the little small-town way, the main street going to the town, being challenged by walmart, and it's like that little variety store, gift shop that's barely staying alive. >> well, the tax code is completely absurd, written by many people over a long period of time. it's ridiculous i'm a corporation same as google or general motors, but it's a rational response to an irrational system. people are making these businesses not because they want to create jobs, but that's because what this absurd tax code requires us to do. >> the people who are the biggest hawks in this country, who want to fight every war, who can't wait to be, let's go into iraq and spend 40 zillion a week, they're the ones who don't want to pay taxes. don't they see the connection? remember the phrase "war effort" you all do your bit when uncle
sam has to fight a war? everybody does? what happened to that idea. >> the interesting thing about this is you see obama talking xw the buffett rule. how many people will be affected by this? i asked as expert at brookings, maybe as few as 1,000 people. >> who would pay a lower tax rates. >> than their secretaries. it's not such a large thing the president has asked for. >> don't they pay at the 15% rate? >> my corporation is not -- pinches i see them with their big yachts. i don't think they're out there sweating 60 hours a week like a working person. >> this is true, chris. >> thanks, dana milbank. whether we return, let me finish with why i think rick perry dishonored this country today and doesn't get what an american president is supposed to be. the president speaks for the america at u.n., not some guy walking around the street
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let me finish tonight with this -- appeasement. it's what democracies buckle to when they buckled to adolf hitler's demand. it's what envelope chamberlain did at munich, give them the right to march across a border and take what land it wanted. appeasement, what many people believe was the reason for
hitler's rise. it sent the signal that they would not fight, he could grab all he wanted, by failing to take a stand when it could have worked they opened the door a year later to poland, setting it up as an opportunity for hitler and stalin to simply greedily divide it up and take what they wanted for themselves. a person uses this word, so loaded with meaning and hatred, carrying a tremor of evil with it, the history of the holocaust. they ought to know what they're saying. if they're not saying a terrible thing like this or not knowing it, they should be ashamed of themselves for being so ignorant. that's right. the leading candidate for his party's nomination stood within a few blocks of the united nations building and accused of president of the united states of appeasement. the charge delivered just hours before the president spoke for our country and also in the clear national interest of israel to give a case for the united states decision to recognize the sovereignty of
a -- was a shameful act, meant to undermine the president at the instant he would be standing practically alone in the world as he was today, standing with our ally israel. at the very moment of national challenge with the president doing what every friend of israel understands he needed to do, this personal from texas, this foreign policy sen gen knew spotted his chance and showed up in new york to do his debut. you did our country a dishonor today. you showed you do not understand the role of the american presidency in our national life. when a president acts to defend the united states, in this case on principle as well as national interest, we should stand behind him. if you don't get that, you don't get us, much less the job of representing us which the president did so well and courageously today. as the great attorney asked of another showboater doing harm a half century ago -- have you no sense of decency, sir? at long